

This section is where we will gather up hints, tips and resources that may be helpful for anyone sitting for their TCRG or ADCRG exams.
If you have anything we can add or if you have spotted a mistake, please let us know.
NB - All Information is based on the requirements for An Coimisiún le Rincí Gaelacha
Contents Quick Links -
To help break down Ár Rinci Fóirne into manageable chunks we have created 30 pages, with one new dance on each day so you can learn them in a month by learning a dance a day! (or even every other day if you have time till your exam)
We will also include revision questions each day so you can make sure you don't forget the ones you have already learned.
Don't forget to make sure you refer to Ár Rinci Fóirne as well to ensure you have them absolutely right.
(all the dances are not yet completed but we'll strive to add at least one a day)
1 The Walls of Limerick Ballaí Luimní 16 Glencar Reel Cor Gleann Cearr 2 The 4 Hand Reel Cor Ceathrair 17 The Three Tunes Na Trí Foinn 3 8 Hand Reel Cor Ochtair 18 St Patrick's Day Lá Fhéile Pádraig 4 Morris Reel Cor Muirgheis 19 Trip to the Cottage Turas 'Un Toighe 5 High Cauled Cap Cadhp an Chúil Aird 20 Rince Mor An Rince Mór 6 16 Hand Reel Cor Sé Dhuine Dhéag 21 Haymakers Jig Baint an Fhéir 7 Humours of Bandon Pléarácha na Bandon 22 The Fairy Reel Cor na Síog 8 8 Hand Jig Port Ochtair 23 The Duke Reel Cor an Diúic 9 Seige of Ennis Ionsaí na hInse 24 Lannigan's Ball Bainéis Uí Lonagáin 10 Harvest Time Jig Port an Fhómhair 25 The Cross Reel An Cor Casta 11 Rince Fada Rince Fada 26 The Waves of Tory Tonnaí Thoraigh 12 The Bridge of Athlone Droichead Atha Luain 27 The Rakes of Mallow Réici Mhala 13 Haste to the Wedding Deifir 'Na Bainise 28 The Gates of Derry Geataí Dhoire 14 The Siege of Carrick Briseadh na Carraige 29 The Sweets of May Aoibhneas na Bealtaine 15 Antrim Reel Cor Aontroma 30 Bonfire Dance Rince Mór na Tine
Just in case you are not sure of the requirements to sit the exams - below are excerpts from the clrg syllabi
For the TCRG (teachers) exam;
The examination is open to persons who are 20 years of age or over at the date of examination and are acceptable to An Coimisiún as candidates and have been recommended by a registered adjudicator or teacher
For the ADCRG (adjudicators) exam;
The examination is open to persons who are 30 years of age or over at the date of examination and are acceptable to An Coimisiún as candidates. They must have already passed the T.C.R.G. Examination. They must be currently registered as T.C.R.G. with An Coimisiún for the last two years.
Excerpt from the syllabus
Candidates are required to have a detailed knowledge of all dances in the handbook "Ar Rincí Foirne" (blue cover edition (2003)).
The question paper will consist of 16 questions (12 x 5 marks; 4 x 10 marks). The paper will be set in English and also in Irish if a candidate so requests at time of application, the paper may be answered in English or in Irish or in a combination of both languages.
The questions will cover all or most of the 30 dances in the handbook. It is possible for candidates to obtain partial marks for answers to questions where the answers are not fully correct. The time allowed for answering the paper is two hours.
As the test is a searching one, candidates are advised to practise answering question papers. Sample question papers are in the ‘Examination Pack’ available from the Coimisiún Office.
Qualifying mark: 70% (ADCRG Qualifying Mark: 80%)
(if anyone has possible solutions to these we would love to add them to the site - please send to info@boydirishdance.com )
Download Latest May 2009 Dublin Paper
Download 2000 to 2009 Past Papers (16 papers)
Download 1990 to 1999 Past Papers (11 papers)
Download Pre 1990 Past Papers (10 papers)
Revision Cards
The pdf documents below are designed to be printed out on 4 x 6 inch file cards to create revision cards you can carry around. (You could always print on larger paper and cut out). There is space around the edge to add your own notes!
Let us know if you spot any mistakes.
Ar Rinci Foirne Dance Summary Cards
Ar Rinci Foirne Tips & Points to Remember
Tips / Points to Remember
Credit to tcrgexam.9k.com for many of the following tips for the Ceili Test Paper
Dances danced to a tune of the same name:
1. Humours of Bandon
2. Haste to the Wedding
3. St. Patrick's Day
4. Trip to the Cottage
5. Lannigan's Ball
6. Rakes of Mallow
7. Sweets of May
Danced to a specific tune:
1. Siege of Carrick - Haste to the Wedding
2. The Three Tunes - Haste to the Wedding
- Leslies Hornpipe
- The German Beau
Dances with a place name from Ireland in their name:
1. Walls of Limerick
2. Humours of Bandon
3. Siege of Ennis
4. Waves of Tory
5. Bridge of Athlone
6. Siege of Carrick
7. Antrim Reel
8. Glencar Reel
9. Rakes of Mallow
10. Gates of Derry
Dances & movements in which all dancers do two consecutive sevens without threes:
1. Four Hand Reel Four Sevens
2. The Cross Reel Exchange Places
3. The Gates of Derry Telescope
4. The Bonfire Dance Sidestep In & Out
Dances with no sidestep:
1. Rince Fada
2. Haymakers Jig
3. Lannigans Ball
4. Waves of Tory
5. Rakes of Mallow
Similar Movement Names:
Advance Through Centre Humours of Bandon
Advance down Centre Rince Fada
Down the Centre Four Hand Reel
Dance Down Centre Antrim Reel
Down the Centre Bridge of Athlone
Up the Centre Haste to the Wedding
Dances with an opening movement other than Advance & Retire, Ring, or Lead Around:
1. Rince Fada
2. Bridge of Athlone
3. Haste to the Wedding
4. Antrim Reel
5. Trip to the Cottage
Dances with Link Arms as the name of the movement:
1. The Sixteen Hand Reel
2. An Rince Mor
3. The Haymakers Jig
4. The Duke Reel
5. The Bonfire Dance
Dances with Link or Hook:
1. The Sixteen Hand Reel Link Arms
2. Siege of Carrick Down Centre & Turn
Up Centre & Swing
3. The Three Tunes Hook & Chain
4. An Rince Mor Link Arms
5. The Haymakers Jig Link Arms
6. The Fairy Reel Gents Centre & Link Arms
7. The Duke Reel Link Arms
8. Lannigans Ball Quarters Hook
9. Rakes of Mallow Link Arms in Centre
10. The Bonfire Dance Link Arms
Dances with Stamp & Clap:
1. The High Cauled Cap
2. The Three Tunes
Chain that ends with left hand to partner:
Right and Left Chain
Movement where you meet your partner 3 times:
Hook & Chain
Dances with Advance & Retire at Start of Dance:
1. Walls of Limerick 8 bars
2. Siege of Ennis 8 bars
3. Harvest Time Jig 8 bars
4. Glencar Reel 8 bars
5. Haymakers Jig 16 bars
6. Fairy Reel 8 bars
7. Waves of Tory 8 bars
8. Rakes of Mallow 8 bars
9. Gates of Derry 16 bars
10. Bonfire Dance 8 bars
Dances containing the movement ‘Ladies Chain’:
1. Four Hand Reel 2nd figure
2. Eight Hand Reel 2nd figure
3. Morris Reel 2nd figure
4. High Cauled Cap 3rd figure
5. Humours of Bandon 3rd figure
6. St. Patricks Day 2nd figure
Dances with opening formation in a ring or circle:
1. Siege of Carrick
2. The Three Tunes
3. An Rince Mor
4. Duke Reel
5. Lannigans Ball
6. Sweets of May
7. Bonfire Dance
Longest Dance = High Cauled Cap (568 Bars)
Traditionally danced on St John's Eve, round the bonfire - The Bonfire Dance
Dances with a 40 bar finish:
1. The Eight Hand Reel
2. Morris Reel
3. High Cauled Cap
4. Sixteen Hand Reel
5. Eight Hand Jig
6. The Cross Reel
Excerpt from the syllabus
(1) Nineteen set-dance tunes are played and candidates are required to identify the
tune by name and state its timing, and give the number of bars in the step and the number in the set.
The marks for each tune will be allocated as follows:-
Name of tune - 2 marks
Timing - 1 mark
Bars in step & Set - 2 marks (only if both are correct)
Where a candidate fails to identify the tune no marks can be earned by identifying the timing or the number of bars in the step and set.
(2) Five tunes – Reel, Slip (Hop) Jig, Single Jig, Double Jig and Hornpipe – are played and candidates are required to identify each dance. There is one mark for each correct answer.
(3) Answer sheets must be handed up immediately the test concludes.
Credit to The Payne Academy for this useful way of remembering the number of bars in the step and set for 27 of the 38 set dance tunes.
Bars in
the Step
Bars in
the Set
Memory Jogger
8
12
12 Madames, Masters and Pipers went on the Hunt for Rodney Rascal up the Tree
8
14
14 Roving Jockeys Hurled Bags of Work on
St Patrick's day
8
16
16 Rambling Rogues sent by the King of Paris Hurried to pick Daisies for Mrs Bandon the Wandering Storyteller
8
20
20 Captains Retreat to the Lodge Pool.
Music Quiz
Test your knowledge for the music paper with the quizzes below. Each quiz has a track with 9 or 10 snippets of set dances. Write down the dance, the time signature and the number of bars in the step and the set, then check your results against the answer. There is even a sheet you can print off to write your answers on.
Question Sheet
Answers (no peeking!)
QUIZ 1
QUIZ 2
QUIZ 4
QUIZ 5
QUIZ 6
QUIZ 7
QUIZ 8
You need to be ready to perform a number of dances - per the syllabus;
Candidates must be capable of performing any or all of the following dances to the satisfaction of the examiners.
(1) Reel, double Jig, Slip (Hop) Jig, Single Jig, Hornpipe
(2) The following old set dances in the traditional manner and speed:-
Garden of Daisies,
Job of Journeywork,
St. Patrick's Day,
The Blackbird
(3) Nine other set dances nominated in advance by the candidates. Four of these dances must be in jig-time, four in hornpipe time and the ninth in either of those times. (NB six dances required for ADCRG exam candidates)
A candidate must have different steps for each set-dance: i.e., he or she must have different settings for all nine set-dances. Neither may a candidate repeat steps from an ordinary solo dance, e.g., double jig or hornpipe, in a set-dance
Qualifying Mark: 70% - a mark of 80% or more exempts a TCRG candidate from having to sit this test for their ADCRG
You need to have steps ready and practiced for these. The solo dances and non-traditional sets will obviously be your own or your teachers choreography.
The pages below may be helpful for the traditional set dances;
Ceili Dancing
Teaching Test (TCRG Exams only)
per the syllabus;
Candidates are required to teach parts of different dances from the handbook "Ar Rincí Foirne" to a group of dancers. The examiners will choose the dances and their parts.
In preparing for this section candidates are advised to study the handbook in close detail and get as much practice as possible in teaching the movements to a group of dancers.
As part of this section candidates may be required to demonstrate that they are capable of performing the basic steps required for Céilí dancing.
Qualifying Mark: 70%
The syllabus also sets out the criteria which you must meet during this test. Below is a checklist that you can use to assess yourself against:
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Set up the dancers correctly. |
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Know the dance and movements sufficiently. |
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Instruct in a clear, concise and audible manner. |
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Guide the dancers through the movements. |
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Correct errors in the movements/footwork. |
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Breakdown of the movements in a suitable manner. |
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Show confidence in practical teaching. |
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Have correct music/rhythm/tempo of music. |
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Have discipline when dealing with the dancers. |
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Succeed in teaching the movement. |
Tips
Know Ar Rinci Foirne inside out
Get lots of practice - they don't even have to be dancers - friends/family will be better than nothing!
Stepdancing
Teaching Test (TCRG Exams only)
per the syllabus;
Candidates are required to teach a light and a heavy step of such different degrees of difficulty as the examiners may request in all or any of the following dances:
Reel
Light Jig
Single
(Hop) JigSlip
JigDouble Jig
Hornpipe
Traditional Set-dance
Other Set-dances (from list of 9 submitted)
Candidates may also be required to show how they would deal with beginners or very young children, identify and correct faults and teach basic movements such as Rocks, Drums, Cross-keys, etc
Qualifying Mark: 70%
The syllabus also sets out the criteria which you must meet during this test. Below is a checklist that you can use to assess yourself against:
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Check standard of the dancers. |
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Teach steps of suitable standard. |
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Demonstrate the step with relevant time/rhythm. |
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Breakdown the material in a suitable manner. |
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Progress at a suitable pace. |
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Identify and correct faults (timing, carriage etc.) |
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Show confidence in practical teaching. |
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Give clear and audible instructions. |
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Have discipline when dealing with the dancers. |
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Succeed in teaching the step chosen. |
Tips
(per syllabus) have several steps of varying difficulty ready for each of the above dances
(per syllabus) have a breakdown of each step prepared in advance in order to facilitate their practical teaching
(per syllabus) ensure that the steps they have prepared are not out of time
(ADCRG Exams only)
The info below assumes you already know how championship scoring works and is just some ideas to help you answer the paper quickly and accurately. If you want to refresh your memory on championship scoring, check out the guide here.
From the syllabus:
This section tests candidates' ability to add marks, place competitors in order on the basis of marks and to use the official Points System to determine overall results.
Candidates may use calculators (which they must provide themselves) in these tests and may refer to a schedule of points (provided by the examiners in charge).
The total time allowed for the test is 45 minutes.
The test consists of four modules as follows:-
A list of 25 competitors with marks in columns 1 & 2 is provided, and candidates must add the marks in columns 1 & 2 for each competitor and enter totals in column 3.
The marks provided in column 4 must then be added to the totals in column 3 and entered in column 5 for each competitor. Calculators may be used in both of these calculations.
The total marks in column 5 are then used to place the 25 competitors in order of merit and entered in column 6.
Using the placings in column 6, the Official Points System is used to determine the overall result.
Sample Maths papers, together with a copy of the Official Points System and a guide to points allocation is available on request from Oifig An Coimisiún.
The first thing you will need to be familiar with in this paper is the grid scores table:-
|
Position |
Grid Score | Position | Grid Score | Position | Grid Score | Position | Grid Score | Position | Grid Score |
| 1st | 100 | 11th | 41 | 21st | 30 | 31st | 20 | 41st | 10 |
| 2nd | 75 | 12th | 39 | 22nd | 29 | 32nd | 19 | 42nd | 9 |
| 3rd | 65 | 13th | 38 | 23rd | 28 | 33rd | 18 | 43rd | 8 |
| 4th | 60 | 14th | 37 | 24th | 27 | 34th | 17 | 44th | 7 |
| 5th | 56 | 15th | 36 | 25th | 26 | 35th | 16 | 45th | 6 |
| 6th | 53 | 16th | 35 | 26th | 25 | 36th | 15 | 46th | 5 |
| 7th | 50 | 17th | 34 | 27th | 24 | 37th | 14 | 47th | 4 |
| 8th | 47 | 18th | 33 | 28th | 23 | 38th | 13 | 48th | 3 |
| 9th | 45 | 19th | 32 | 29th | 22 | 39th | 12 | 49th | 2 |
| 10th | 43 | 20th | 31 | 30th | 21 | 40th | 11 | 50th | 1 |
You are given a copy of this in the exam so you don't need to remember it by heart. In the paper you will be given a sheet with the raw scores for the first two dances filled out - you need to do the following steps
1. Add the two raw scores together and write the answer in the third column
(you do not need to work out the recall list so you don't need to rank them at this point)
Tips
Have a calculator with nice, big, easy to use buttons
Write clearly, don't make mistakes because you can't tell a 0 from a 6!
If you can type the numbers into your calculator with your left hand and write the numbers down with your right - it will save you keep having to swap
2. Now add the recall raw score in the 4th column onto your total in the third column and write in the 5th column
Tip
Write these totals in clear columns (i.e. line up the 100's, 10's and units) so that when you come to rank them it is easier to pick out the highest total raw scores e.g.
|
100's |
10's | units |
| 2 | 1 | 2 |
| 3 | 2 | 2 |
| 2 | 9 | 8 |
| 2 | 4 | 2 |
| 1 | 2 | 3 |
| 3 | 2 | 5 |
3. Now you need to rank the total raw scores in order.
Tips
This is probably the easiest step to make a mistake on so be methodical
Look at the 100's and 10's column as one two digit number

Scan down the list for the highest number across these two columns (32 in the example above), then pick out all dancers with that score and rank them - they will be your first few places
If you have a tie remember to skip over the appropriate number of places in the rank when you do the next lowest (e.g. if you have two dancers tied in 3rd place, the next highest score would be 5th NOT 4th, if you have 3 dancers tied in 16th place, the next highest dancer will be 19th place etc.)
It may help to quickly write out the numbers 1-25 (assuming there are 25 dancers on the paper) and tick off each place as you award it
If you get to the last dancer and they are not ranked last (i.e. 25th if there were 25 dancers) it means you have made a mistake - don't panic, if it is obvious in the last few places you can go back and change it, otherwise if it is only one mistake you shouldn't lose too many marks so carry on.
4. Finally you need to award the grid scores. If there is a tie you add up the grid scores for the places involved and divide the total by the number of tied dancers. (e.g. if two are tied in second place, each dancer gets a grid score of 75+65 = 140 / 2 = 70, if 3 are tied in 16th each would score 35+ 34+ 33 = 102 / 3 = 34)
Tips
The grid scores for places 1-12 drop in the following intervals:-
5 - 10 - 5 - 4 - 3x3 - 2x4
From 12th place (grid of 39) down they drop in 1's so you can quickly run down those places without needing to refer to the grid scores table.
Being quick at working out averages for tied places will help you whiz through the paper and leave time to check things at the end, simple tricks for working out averages include;
for two tied dancers, the average will be halfway between the two scores (e.g. for the tied 2nd place example, each dancer gets grid points half way between 75 & 65, i.e. 70)
if there was a two way tie from 12th down, each dancer would get the grid for that place, less 0.5 (e.g. a 2 way tie at 24th would give each dancer a grid of 27 - 0.5 = 26.5)
if there is a tie of three dancers from 13th down, the average is the the middle of the three grid scores. (e.g. for the 3 way tie at 16th example each dancer would get the middle score of 35-34-33 i.e. 34)
There are some practice examples below for you to print out and complete, then check against the answers.
Adjudicating
Test & Interview (ADCRG Exams only)
per the syllabus;
(1) In this test candidates are required to demonstrate their ability to judge competitions in both stepdancing and céilí dancing. A special mini-feis is held at which dancers actually compete for prizes as happens at an ordinary feis. The competitions are judged and prizes awarded by a qualified adjudicator. The mini-feis programme consists of eight competitions in various age groups and grades.
(2) The examination candidates judge the competitions, take notes of
competitors strong points and also their weak points, faults etc. They award
marks and place the competitors in order of merit. Excessive erasures and
alterations should be avoided. It should be clear from the notes why one
competitor is placed higher or lower than another.
Abbreviations used in notes should be understandable to the examiners. The candidates then list their prize-winners, taking special care not to make mistakes at this stage.
Candidates are not aware of the results of the official adjudicator - these are announced only after the candidates' mark sheets are collected and the candidates themselves have left the hall.
The examiners also judge the competitions, marking dancers and noting their faults to enable them to assess candidates' markings, results and comments.
At the end of each competition at the mini-feis a limited, but reasonable, amount of time is to be allowed for candidates to finalise their results. The mark-sheets and results are then taken up before the next competition.
(3) Following the mini-feis each candidate is interviewed privately for about 35 - 45 minutes by the panel of examiners. About thirty minutes before the interview his or her mark-sheets are returned to a candidate (who will be under supervision at the time) to allow him or her refresh his or her memory on the competitions, comments, etc. Candidates must not at this stage interfere with or make any alterations to their mark-sheets. A person found guilty of any misconduct in this respect will be automatically disqualified and may also be disqualified from retaking the examination at a future date. Another purpose of this procedure is to place candidates on an equal footing with regard to preparation for the interview irrespective of the time-lapse between the end of the mini-feis and the candidate's interview.
At the interview by the panel the candidate answers questions from the examiners on his or her results, marks, comments and, if requested, gives the reasons for particular placings. Basically the candidate is required to justify his or her results to the panel. A candidate who is not clear on what a panel member is asking is fully entitled to request clarification.
(4) Candidates are advised to attend as many feiseanna as possible to gain
experience of adjudicating.
They are most welcome to attend exam mini-feiseanna in order to be familiar with
mini-feis arrangements, set-up, etc.
(5) In the mini-feis and interview maximum marks are allotted as follows:-
Markings 25
Written Adjudication 20
Oral adjudication & interview 25 100
Qualifying Mark: 70%
The syllabus also sets out the criteria which you must meet during this test. Below is a checklist that you can use to assess yourself against:
RESULTS Approximately top five places should be written out at the end of the sheet for each competition or on an attached sheet and should be in agreement with the marks allocated.Dancers should be placed/ranked according to their marks.
Results should reflect the performance of the dancers/teams with regard to any errors/faults – especially time faults.
Results do not have to agree with those of the Examiners, but should not show major or consistent disagreement without acceptable justification.Do not confuse the mark with the dancer’s number.
Candidates must be able to justify their results.
It is the Examiners role to question the candidate about their results.
MARKING Allocate a mark to each dancer. The use of half marks is permitted (albeit sparingly), but other fractions should not be used.
A reasonable spread of marks is expected, especially in the light of the small entries.
Excessive ties must be avoided in small competitions.
All marks must be justified by written comments.
Written comments should not contradict marks or placing.
WRITTEN ADJUDICATION Written work should be neat and legible. Avoid scratching out, changing marks or comments.
Each dancer/team should receive written comments – these should reflect the marks they have been awarded.
Abbreviations used in notes should be understandable to the examiners.
Comments should be varied and should be both positive and negative.
All form of mistakes, errors, time faults, infringements of rules (especially in Ceili Dances) must be noted as written comments. ORAL ADJUDICATION / INTERVIEW Candidates should speak clearly and audibly Candidates are afforded an opportunity to justify their marks, placings and written comments.
Candidates will be required to make fluent oral comments on their adjudication.
Oral comments should not contradict written comments/marks.
Candidates should be able to present a reasoned rationale for their results when questioned by the Examiners. Candidates may be asked their views on the broader and general aspects of the dance genre in the mini-feis
Here is a list of abbreviations which you may find useful when adjudicating:
| B | Boy | |
| O/T | Out of time | |
| BR | Bad Rhythm | |
| GR | Good Rhythm | |
| SRF | Straight right foot | |
| SLF | straight left foot | |
| TIF | turned in feet | |
| TIRF | turned in right foot | |
| TILF | turned in left foot | |
| RA | right arm | |
| LA | left arm | |
| LD | looking down | |
| FHB | fet hanging at back | |
| FNS | feet not stretched | |
| JBK | jumping with bent knees | |
| HT | head tilted | |
| H/O | Hands open | |
| CD | Chin down | |
| S | stop | |
| M | mistake | |
| SFJ | straight feet taking off on jumps | |
| BAW | bending at waist | |
| XFT | needs to cross feet | |
| NF | nice feet | |
| GC | good carraige | |
| GE | good elevation | |
| Easy Steps | ||
| Hard Steps | ||
Finally, for some light
relief...
These were taken from the Voy TCRG forum...
You know you are studying for an exam from An Comisiun when....
Your non-Irish dancing roommates can hum the tune to St. Patrick's Day, including the set piece.
Your social life consists of two sections: before the exam, and after the exam.
You re-choreograph your set pieces in your head during church and work.
Any time you see eight able bodies, you wonder if they have ever learned (insert 8-hand here)
| An Coimisiún le Rincí Gaelacha | The definitive syllabus from the governing body for TCRG, ADCRG and TMRF (Ceili) exams. |
| CLRG Exam Materials | Exam materials pack from CLRG |
| Voy Forum for TCRG students | Forum specifically for those studying for TCRG/ADCRG exams |
| Ar Rinci Foirne is our Bible | Facebook support group for people studying for TCRG/ADCRG exams |
| Payne Academy TCRG Page | Support page from the Payne Academy website. Includes the 2007 Past Papers. |
| Various different summaries of Ar Rinci Foirne | |
| TCRG Exam website | Good overview site for those starting out on studying |
| Having Fun with the TCRG Exam | Sounds like a stretch but this site with lightearted tips at least helps |
| Feiswear.com | Some notes/thoughts about taking the TCRG from feiswear owners Rose and John Clark whose daughter has sat the exam |
| idanceirish | Study guide, including CD's, available to purchase from idanceirish |
| UK Supplier | Sells Ar Rinci Foirne if you buy a Ceili CD. Stock CD's covering all dances |
| US Supplier | Sells Ar Rinci Foirne and a study guide to help learning it! |
| Requirements of Other Governing Bodies | The TCRG requirements of a number of the different Irish dancing governing bodies are included in this dance.net thread. |
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